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	<title>Comments on: Pointing Fingers on Public Schools</title>
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		<title>By: Angie</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>Angie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>Peter,

You can email me at schmitt.81@gmail.com and I will send you the information that I have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,</p>
<p>You can email me at <a href="mailto:schmitt.81@gmail.com">schmitt.81@gmail.com</a> and I will send you the information that I have.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter D</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1199</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1199</guid>
		<description>Angie:

Do you know who is behind the Charter School and what the basic premise of the school will be? Will it be open admission etc...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angie:</p>
<p>Do you know who is behind the Charter School and what the basic premise of the school will be? Will it be open admission etc&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: schmange</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1186</link>
		<dc:creator>schmange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1186</guid>
		<description>Peter,

Thanks for the advice. You seem to know a lot about the subject. I am studying urban planning, development and design at Cleveland State.

Actually, I just learned that a group of Ohio City residents is trying to arrange the creation of a CMSD-sponsored charter school for residents who want to raise families in the neighborhood. This is an exciting project and I&#039;ll be following it with my master&#039;s thesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter,</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice. You seem to know a lot about the subject. I am studying urban planning, development and design at Cleveland State.</p>
<p>Actually, I just learned that a group of Ohio City residents is trying to arrange the creation of a CMSD-sponsored charter school for residents who want to raise families in the neighborhood. This is an exciting project and I&#8217;ll be following it with my master&#8217;s thesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter D</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1152</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1152</guid>
		<description>John:

While agree that the exodus of the &quot;middle class&quot; is but a symptom among many, it is nevertheless part of the issue.  And, no, the exodus of the middle class is not just a &quot;white flight&quot; issue - its an economic issue.  Thus, there are often motivating factors (other than race) which cause the exodus (see e.g. the black middle class exodus from Pittsburgh&#039;s &quot;Hill district&quot; - which was primarily the result of government development projects - the plopping down of the Arena with no community imput - the plopping down of section 8/projects without community imput).  I think Pittsburgh is doing a decent job of not replicating those same mistakes.  The community organization &quot;One Hill&quot; procured a &quot;Community Benefits Agreement&quot; with the developers of the new Arena.  &quot;Pittsburgh United&quot; and &quot;Northside United&quot; have made strides to insure commmunity involvement in the development on the Northside, the Casino, as well as in East Liberty (Bakery Square) and elsewhere.

Angie:

I&#039;m not convinced that &quot;community development organization&quot; is the same as &quot;community organizing&quot; organization.  Development is development - economic (and while good schools is decidedly an economic issue - it is also very much a human issue).  I think if you compare the work of the community organizing groups of &#039;75-&#039;85 to the development organizations of today, you can see a huge difference in focus (check out Randy Cunningham&#039;s DEMOCRATIZING CLEVELAND, THE RISE AND FALL OF COMMUNITY ORGANIZING IN CLEVELAND FROM 1975-1985).  As he describes it, there was a long period of time when the city (and banks) could care less about development in Cleveland&#039;s neighborhoods (except downtown).  Thus, you have &quot;redlining&quot; practices of the banks, such that even if the middle class wanted to invest, the banks were simply not loaning in certain &quot;redlined&quot; neighborhoods.  

Anyhow, just a bunch of rambling thoughts...  

Are you studying urban development? (I just notice you mentioned doing a &quot;research project&quot;.

Peter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>While agree that the exodus of the &#8220;middle class&#8221; is but a symptom among many, it is nevertheless part of the issue.  And, no, the exodus of the middle class is not just a &#8220;white flight&#8221; issue &#8211; its an economic issue.  Thus, there are often motivating factors (other than race) which cause the exodus (see e.g. the black middle class exodus from Pittsburgh&#8217;s &#8220;Hill district&#8221; &#8211; which was primarily the result of government development projects &#8211; the plopping down of the Arena with no community imput &#8211; the plopping down of section 8/projects without community imput).  I think Pittsburgh is doing a decent job of not replicating those same mistakes.  The community organization &#8220;One Hill&#8221; procured a &#8220;Community Benefits Agreement&#8221; with the developers of the new Arena.  &#8220;Pittsburgh United&#8221; and &#8220;Northside United&#8221; have made strides to insure commmunity involvement in the development on the Northside, the Casino, as well as in East Liberty (Bakery Square) and elsewhere.</p>
<p>Angie:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced that &#8220;community development organization&#8221; is the same as &#8220;community organizing&#8221; organization.  Development is development &#8211; economic (and while good schools is decidedly an economic issue &#8211; it is also very much a human issue).  I think if you compare the work of the community organizing groups of &#8217;75-&#8217;85 to the development organizations of today, you can see a huge difference in focus (check out Randy Cunningham&#8217;s DEMOCRATIZING CLEVELAND, THE RISE AND FALL OF COMMUNITY ORGANIZING IN CLEVELAND FROM 1975-1985).  As he describes it, there was a long period of time when the city (and banks) could care less about development in Cleveland&#8217;s neighborhoods (except downtown).  Thus, you have &#8220;redlining&#8221; practices of the banks, such that even if the middle class wanted to invest, the banks were simply not loaning in certain &#8220;redlined&#8221; neighborhoods.  </p>
<p>Anyhow, just a bunch of rambling thoughts&#8230;  </p>
<p>Are you studying urban development? (I just notice you mentioned doing a &#8220;research project&#8221;.</p>
<p>Peter</p>
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		<title>By: John Morris</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1151</link>
		<dc:creator>John Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1151</guid>
		<description>I think these issues go a lot deeper and are more complex than just describing it as white flight or the loss of the &quot;middle class&quot;.

For example in NYC and I think Pittsburgh also people of all races line up to get their kids into Catholic schools many of which have mostly minority students.

Also in NYC at least a very large number of whites were forcibly removed from the homes and neighborhoods they loved by urban renewal and other government programs.

The low estimate is that Robert Moses moved 500,000 people to build his highways and destroyed Jewish neighborhoods like East Tremont in the Bronx as well as Italian ones like Williamsburg in Brooklyn. These people didn&#039;t &quot;flee&quot;, they were kicked out at gunpoint. These numbers don&#039;t include the areas destroyed to build housing projects. 

The same thing happened in Newark&#039;s Central Ward which saw the removal of not just the cities core African American neigborhood but also an old Italian section.

The general trend in city after city is that the number of housing units destroyed was never fully replaced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think these issues go a lot deeper and are more complex than just describing it as white flight or the loss of the &#8220;middle class&#8221;.</p>
<p>For example in NYC and I think Pittsburgh also people of all races line up to get their kids into Catholic schools many of which have mostly minority students.</p>
<p>Also in NYC at least a very large number of whites were forcibly removed from the homes and neighborhoods they loved by urban renewal and other government programs.</p>
<p>The low estimate is that Robert Moses moved 500,000 people to build his highways and destroyed Jewish neighborhoods like East Tremont in the Bronx as well as Italian ones like Williamsburg in Brooklyn. These people didn&#8217;t &#8220;flee&#8221;, they were kicked out at gunpoint. These numbers don&#8217;t include the areas destroyed to build housing projects. </p>
<p>The same thing happened in Newark&#8217;s Central Ward which saw the removal of not just the cities core African American neigborhood but also an old Italian section.</p>
<p>The general trend in city after city is that the number of housing units destroyed was never fully replaced.</p>
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		<title>By: schmange</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1150</link>
		<dc:creator>schmange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1150</guid>
		<description>And while I do blame the middle class, I don&#039;t have kids. So I don&#039;t know what that&#039;s like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And while I do blame the middle class, I don&#8217;t have kids. So I don&#8217;t know what that&#8217;s like.</p>
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		<title>By: schmange</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1149</link>
		<dc:creator>schmange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1149</guid>
		<description>I do sort of blame the middle class. Funny though, I just bought a house in the Detroit Shoreway too.
I am all for school choice, personally. There are a lot of choices for Cleveland Public School students and that is one advantage the district has over the suburbs. I feel like I can figure out a way to make it work, when I have kids. I could go on and on, but I think children should be exposed to diversity and some adversity. Also, I think parental education levels are the best determination of a child&#039;s academic success.

I am just playing around with these ideas right now. I was actually thinking of doing a research project about middle class people in the city of Cleveland. Where do they send their kids? Can community development efforts like the one taking place in the Detroit Shoreway be broadened to incorporate school improvement. If there was just one strong school nearby, think what that would do for the neighborhood...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do sort of blame the middle class. Funny though, I just bought a house in the Detroit Shoreway too.<br />
I am all for school choice, personally. There are a lot of choices for Cleveland Public School students and that is one advantage the district has over the suburbs. I feel like I can figure out a way to make it work, when I have kids. I could go on and on, but I think children should be exposed to diversity and some adversity. Also, I think parental education levels are the best determination of a child&#8217;s academic success.</p>
<p>I am just playing around with these ideas right now. I was actually thinking of doing a research project about middle class people in the city of Cleveland. Where do they send their kids? Can community development efforts like the one taking place in the Detroit Shoreway be broadened to incorporate school improvement. If there was just one strong school nearby, think what that would do for the neighborhood&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Peter D</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1147</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 05:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1147</guid>
		<description>A spot on post. I would just push back a little:  while the state of the cleveland public schools is a result of (in part) the middle class leaving, I&#039;m not sure I could &quot;blame&quot; the middle class for doing so.  Idealism and hope animates lives until its your own kids...

That said, I&#039;m a middle class fellow, with a wife and two kids, who&#039;s looking to buy in the Detroit Shoreway neighborhood even knowing the state of the schools.  I want to see CMSD succeed....  It looks like Cleveland leadership (and the new &quot;transformational plan&quot;) is embracing &quot;school choice&quot; and alternative (i.e. charter) schools.  What do you think of this direction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A spot on post. I would just push back a little:  while the state of the cleveland public schools is a result of (in part) the middle class leaving, I&#8217;m not sure I could &#8220;blame&#8221; the middle class for doing so.  Idealism and hope animates lives until its your own kids&#8230;</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m a middle class fellow, with a wife and two kids, who&#8217;s looking to buy in the Detroit Shoreway neighborhood even knowing the state of the schools.  I want to see CMSD succeed&#8230;.  It looks like Cleveland leadership (and the new &#8220;transformational plan&#8221;) is embracing &#8220;school choice&#8221; and alternative (i.e. charter) schools.  What do you think of this direction?</p>
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		<title>By: Special K</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1120</link>
		<dc:creator>Special K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 00:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>Angie-- Exactly! I don&#039;t think David Simon (of The Wire) could have said it any better himself!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angie&#8211; Exactly! I don&#8217;t think David Simon (of The Wire) could have said it any better himself!</p>
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		<title>By: John Morris</title>
		<link>http://rustwire.com/2009/12/28/pointing-fingers-on-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-1117</link>
		<dc:creator>John Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rustwire.com/?p=2806#comment-1117</guid>
		<description>Count on me to point out the non PC fact that urban density and traditional mixed use would allow for greater competition among not only public and charter schools but also among private schools.

In fact, it&#039;s likely that with vouchers or even better yet, the complete elimination of state schools that cities like Pittsburgh would do very well.

That&#039;s why NYC was pretty much the birth place of the magnet school trend. School district 2, Manhattan-- Anthony Alvarado.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Count on me to point out the non PC fact that urban density and traditional mixed use would allow for greater competition among not only public and charter schools but also among private schools.</p>
<p>In fact, it&#8217;s likely that with vouchers or even better yet, the complete elimination of state schools that cities like Pittsburgh would do very well.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why NYC was pretty much the birth place of the magnet school trend. School district 2, Manhattan&#8211; Anthony Alvarado.</p>
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